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so heres the deal. im frustrated and disgruntled due to the condition of my poi set. quite frankly, im completely unhappy with it and need to do a complete workover. i need shorter chains, swivels, and maybe some new wicks and some weights for tosses. but first things first: the swivels. only i dont even know where to start. i realized i dont enjoy spinning fire much anymore and its because i cant do on command the things i can do with my oggz or socks. one of the main things is i want to pull orbitals and air wraps on command which i am usually capable of doing with my other poi. i played with some swivels recently at a festival and they were awesome. i want my own but i dont know if i should order some that i may not end up liking or wait a few weeks until im rusty and out of practice and buy them at wildfire from a vendor. do i need swivels on both ends (totaling four for the set) or just two for up by the fingerloops? whats the difference between barrel swivels and ball bearing swivels? does anyone have any information? i hate not wanting to spin. any help will be greatly appreciated!
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Philadelphia
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Re: swivels!!
Tue, June 2, 2009 - 2:02 PMI used to use swivels from homeofpoi.com only at the handles. Now I use ball chain because each link is like a swivel.
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Re: swivels!!
Tue, June 2, 2009 - 2:13 PMJust sent this to you via email as well, but wanted to put it out there for anyone else looking. I dig these:
www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en...rd-item.jsp
These are the ones on my own poi right now, but I'm having a hard time finding an online store that carries them:
www.mustad.no/catalog/product.php
Things to look out for: A) ball bearing swivels--you will wear out anything else, I guarantee it B) enclosed bearings like this. There is only one opening in this bearing as opposed to an opening in each side as you find with most other fishing swivels. Do NOT use barrel swivels.
I recommend attaching one to either end of your chain and pointing the opening inward (away from the head) because soot can get into the opening and grind the swivel to a halt. I've had my set on my poi for over a year and they haven't lost any of their smoothness.
Hope this helps! -
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Re: swivels!!
Tue, June 2, 2009 - 2:32 PMThe only problem I have with cabelas are the tiny little split rings which aren't meant to be near heat. The heat of a wick can cause the spring metal to convert to mild steel and the chain rating changes. -
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Re: swivels!!
Tue, June 2, 2009 - 2:36 PMGood to know! I've been using the Mustad swivels (which have welded rings) for the past two years and love 'em except for the fact that I need to get additional split rings to join them to the chains, so when I saw the Cabela's swivels it made me really excited that someone had solved this problem. I guess it's back to the separate split-rings on this one. Incidentally, the same Cabela's swivels with welded rings instead of split-rings can be found here:
www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en...ks/link.jsp -
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Re: swivels!!
Tue, June 2, 2009 - 2:57 PMMaybe switch to quick links instead of split rings for chain attachment? But as long as they're away from fire, anything should be acceptable. -
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Re: swivels!!
Tue, June 2, 2009 - 3:51 PMI use a quicklink on the side that faces toward the head and a split ring to join the other side to the chain.
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Re: swivels!!
Thu, June 4, 2009 - 9:50 AMThanks!
Does anybody know what type of hardware are on the top of Oggz? I wanted to use something similar?
Thanks,
D
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Re: swivels!!
Tue, June 9, 2009 - 6:22 PMAnd here is an ebay listing for black 6/300 ball bearing swivels (eagle claw) with welded rings at a slightly cheaper price: 24 for $9.50
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll
D
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Re: swivels!!
Tue, June 2, 2009 - 2:28 PMYeah, I prefer ball chain, too. Some folks complain about ball chain but use swivels anyway which are essentially the same as ball chain. Cracks me up.
To answer your questions, you can put swivels anywhere in your chains, but if you're doing fire, swivels near the wicks can get gummed up with black soot and cease to work. So up near the grips is best.
Now, a word on "test" vs "load rating" in chain strength. Most swivels are rated for fishing, and only have a "test strength" rating. This is the actual weight at which they will probably fail. 80 Lb test is a very common, high-end fishing swivel.
Most chains are rated under "work load limit" or "load limit" or WLL, which is the safe estimated weight you can put on them for lifting, swinging, etc. The WLL is approximately 15 times the chains break strength, or "test". To apply that backwards, your chain may be "load rated" at 80 lbs, so you think that an 80 lb (test) swivel is best. However, 80 lb test is the equivalent of about 5 lbs work load limit. So your chains would be rated at 80lbs, but your swivels at 5lb. This should be fine for average wicks under a pound, but not for big horkin' wicks or serious high-speed wraps, etc. -
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Re: swivels!!
Tue, June 2, 2009 - 2:49 PMAlso a good point! I'd forgotten about this aspect of the rating, though I'd point out I've yet to find an enclosed ball bearing swivel like the ones above that's large enough to attach to a chain that's rated anything less than 120-160 lbs.
I'm also going to quibble a bit over the chain assertion. While ball chain and swivels may behave similarly, their construction is vastly different. Ball chains are essentially metal tubes that have been wrapped around pieces shaped like a pair of drain stoppers. Because of this construction, they have a seam that runs laterally across the entire chain and weakens over time as stresses pull at each end of the ball. An enclosed ball bearing swivel like the ones I'm linking to have oiled ball bearings running in an enclosed track and thus retain lubrication for a longer period of time. The run smoother for longer than ball chain--I've had to repair a couple set of ball chain poi that friends have brought to performances only to see them fail in spectacular and dangerous fashion but never once have I seen a bearing like the one listed above fail in this way. Doesn't mean it can't happen--I just haven't seen it. -
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Re: swivels!!
Tue, June 2, 2009 - 2:52 PMIncidentally, Tedward, I'm sure you already know how both swivels and ball chains are constructed--I'd written up the descriptions for those reading who don't. I'm not intending to talk down to you on this in any way.
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Re: swivels!!
Tue, June 2, 2009 - 2:56 PMThat's true. But the differences are
1) Ball chain has multiple swivel points, so when one gets sticky another takes over.
2) The complaint is that ball chain has hidden parts that cannot be checked for wear or stress. All fully enclosed swivels, ball bearing or ball chain suffer from that same issue.
While it's true that I've seen both fail, I will admit that the biggest problem with ball chain is that people tend to pick it up in hardware stores that do not provide load or test ratings, and usually not even the materials in construction. A #10 aluminum ball chain has a test rating of about 10 lbs. This often leads to under-rated chains for the use intended. -
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Re: swivels!!
Tue, June 2, 2009 - 4:11 PMawesome. thanks for all the feedback guys. -
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Re: swivels!!
Wed, June 3, 2009 - 7:02 AMBrother Daniel,
The swivels Drex pointed out might be smaller, but here is what we have in relationship to a 3.0 mm quicklink and 2.0 mm chain. I prefer swivels, myself, and I suggest ones near the head if you are the type to wrap the chain around your hands, like I am, or near the handle if you only (or mostly) just grip the handle.
On the swivel vs. ball chain argument, I can hang a wick from one of these ball-bearing swivels, spin it, and have it rotate quite a bit longer than if it is hanging on only ball chain, which speaks to the performance.
www.firemecca.com/p-770-bal...ivels.aspx
Matthew
Fire Mecca -
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Re: swivels!!
Wed, June 3, 2009 - 10:03 AMyeah i had my wicks on ball chains for a minute but they didnt continue to spin nearly as long as they do with swivels. and when you really lock it in with a pair of swivels it just feels so great, you know? with ball chain they kept rolling down the chain which made for a less smooth feeling and what felt like less control -
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Re: swivels!!
Wed, June 3, 2009 - 3:26 PMyou know, I asked Matthew (Fire Mecca) to weld ball bearing swivels on each end of their 2mm chain because I like to alternate with shortening the chains around my hand. I've not had any problems with them and they feel wonderful. One quicklink attaches the chain to wick; the other end I looped a rope through the welded ring and made a stopper grip. It feels seamless all the way down the chain.
One option would be to have the swivel welded in the middle of the chain, just behind the point where you'd normally tangle the chains. That would keep it further from the soot Tedward was talking about but let you keep the swivel down further where it will do you more good. -
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Re: swivels!!
Thu, June 4, 2009 - 5:55 AMinteresting idea. im considering going back on my word to be done with HoP as they just came out with link chains with swivels directly welded on either end. www.homeofpoi.com/shop/prod...hain-cords Basically they appear to be exactly what im looking for. on a slightly unrelated note, will i see any of you awesome and helpful people at wildfire in a couple weeks? -
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Re: swivels!!
Thu, June 4, 2009 - 7:59 AMFire Mecca has poi heads with swivels that are built into the poi head. I ordered these yesterday.
www.firemecca.com/p-878-moo...heads.aspx
I will let you know how I like them.
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Re: swivels!!
Thu, June 4, 2009 - 12:43 PMI'll be there :)
Matthew
Fire Mecca
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Re: swivels!!
Thu, June 4, 2009 - 12:40 PMWe actually did put swivels in about 7" from the handle, so someone could wrap and do a pinch grip on the swivels. But, they did not work out well for orbitals. They would otherwise work fine for regular spinning, though.
Matthew
Fire Mecca -
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Re: swivels!!
Thu, June 11, 2009 - 9:23 PMSAMPO!
sampoinc.com
the best swivels i've seen.
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