Oh, yeah. Im sure everyone has hit that at some point or another. You have two basic options, plow on through it or take a break. For example, I had to work relentlessly for a couple of months before I developed the flexibility to do behind the back stuff like waistwraps. On the other hand, I really had to move far away from hyperloops for a while before something clicked mentally and I started to really get how to do infinite loops.

Personally, I would advise turning on the music and jam out with all the things you've already learned. Don't just be comfy, but intimate with the moves and you will probably find yourself discovering interesting variations in and of themselves. It may not seem like you are training for new moves much, but it will so increase your flexibility and awareness of all the ways you can place your hands and orbits. That will lead to entries and exits to moves you want to go back to learning later.

But never fear; you are most definitely not alone when it comes to hitting a plateau. Keep spinning and that light will pop on. :)

I hit a similar block and I practiced with powerball/mini-gyroscopes behing my back, worked up proper controlling spin muscles and also stretched. It does wonders. Hope that helps =)

I think we all have strengths and weaknesses, it’s what gives us our individual style of spinning. I think different body styles also make a difference in what is easy and hard. When I started doing the BTB weave, my shoulders would ache as I was gaining flexibility in them. I learned the motion of the hands and how to sway my body, then I added the poi, one at a time. Once I got the basic muscle memory down, keeping my head up made it easier, rather than looking down at the poi. Nick Woolsey has a good tutorial on the BTB weave.

Waist wrapping takes shoulder and back flexibility. Someone I know took yoga just to gain enough flexibility to do waist wrapping. I’ve figured there’s nothing every-day life that puts your arms and body into positions resembling BTB stuff or waist wrapping. They are foreign positions and take some practice.

Some things just come easier than others. I picked up waist wrapping pretty quick, but struggled with crossers for a couple weeks. I can do some atomic and tech stuff, but can only nail a hyperloop about 50-70% of the time, despite hours of practice. I just don’t do them with fire ;-)

Yeah, BTB moves will test your patience and commitment. I recommend trying to start with meltdowns. One arm crossed in front of you, one arm crossed in back. Start with doing it just in your wheel planes; develop the ability to hold them in place, and to alternate which one is frontside and which one is BTB.

Then move it into your wall plane ala a waistwrap. Learn to do crossers this way and also alternate.

This will all get you used to working BTB without having to deal with your poi hitting each other.

Also note that arm position is crucial. I definitely put my shoulder through hell before I realized I wasn't bringing my arm across my back correctly. Your arm will rotate so that the top side of your arm will press into the small of your back. Practice this with 1 poi. I also found that when I started getting BTB weaves, lots of body movement was necessary, and then became less so as the more I did it the more flexible I became.

Then, when you're ready to do it all BTB, study the movements of the same move FTB. Attempt to replicate. Have fun.

This is what I recommend, YMMV. There are a lot of different learning processes, different ways of translating to the brain, and my favorite thing about poi is that it has taught me to teach myself things.

</my2cents>

The two things (aside from practicing my arse off) that I think have helped me the most are 1) using the same poi for an extended number of practices, and 2) using different types of poi. I started with socks, then got some ball chains with glow poi, then ball chains with fire heads, then strings with glowsticks, then lightweight chains with heavy poi, then heavy chains with lightweight poi, long chains, short chains...

What ended up happening was that certain moves were easier to learn with certain types of poi, and then once my body understood the move it became easier to translate the move to other types of poi. For example, I was having trouble learning the waist wraps, too (oh, the bruises on my poor legs!), but I discovered that I had more success with poi that were a bit longer than the armpit-to-fingers length because the poi would pass at my ankles instead of my calves, and because the poi move a bit slower when they are longer, so I had a little more time to think about it.

I think it took me about a month to learn waist wraps, 3 weeks of frustration with shorter poi, then about a week with the longer poi where I saw progress everyday.

James

PS I don't think flexibility is as important as adaptability when it comes to BTB stuff. Maybe try turning your body to compensate for your lack of flexibilty instead of trying to make your arms and shoulders do all the work. Eventually your arms and shoulders will develop the flexibility on their own.

Here are some things I've done when i hit my plateaus:
I'll go back to the foundations and basics, work on perfecting the moves I already understand.
pick up a different prop.
go study different styles of dance/movement and work on ways of blending them with my poi.
think of new transitions and combinations.
listen to music.
write down all of the poi moves, movements, concepts, combinations, etc. I know in poi.

I've also been struggling with many of the behind the back moves. My remedy has been to practice them over and over again. Trying as many variations as I can think of to understand them and be able to do them smoothly. Breaking down everything into their segments and fundamentals helps. One technique I learned from Nick Heyming which I use is to do poi moves with a staff. For example i'll hold a staff with both hands near the center then do three beat behind the back weave. it takes a moment to get but it is possible.

if it is just a reaching issue I recommend more yoga or other stretching.

And then there's Nick Woolsey
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch

i did have a plateau a bit ago...
and the only thing that was able to really break me out of it
was to be completely and utterly inspired by other people.

i knew people were more advanced than me, but it took some incredible things to reopen my eyes.

If your having trouble with contortion stuff, then stretch every day,
and also every time before you spin.
btb moves are alot easier if you use your whole body rather than just your arms.
So try swaying from side to side.
the btb weave took me quite a while to learn,
but once i learned the btb forward 3bt, the reverse came quickly, as did some btb wraps.
after extensive practice on the waistwrap i accidentally stumbled on the btb 5beat weaves and the btb butterfly weave.
You just have to improve your flexibility, and then you can apply the concepts from in front of you to the space behind you.

Once I hit my plateau my moving forward step was into tosses or find something else that grabs you. New transitions Possibly take up a form of dance and try to misx it with your poi. Currently I am working mixing the acrobatic and tumbling of capoeira into my poi it is deleloping my poi into a whole new direction. Well those are the thoughts rubbling around in that thing i keep on my sholders

I only browsed the other responses, so i might be saying something that has already been said, but most of what i saw was more about learning plateaus, rather than "contorted moves"


bhb and ww moves require some amount of shoulder and core flexibility, that a lot of people dont have. you can open up this flexibility by traditional stretching, or by spinning at the edges of your range of motion.

reverse bhb weave would be the least contorted move along these lines...once you learn that, you should start to learn waistwraps by cheating, and turning your body a little bit so you are somewhere between wheel and wallplane (the poi's plane should stay in place, but your body turns a little, so its more bhb than true waist wrap). as you get more flexible by spinning actively in this range of motion, you can try to reduce your body movement, until you are spinning in bhb wallplane.



the answer is always spin more!

try harder!

Do it again!

When in doubt... whip it out..... in this case... a DIFFERENT fire toy. I suggest you occasionally put down your poi... and try other things... snakes... glow poi... staves... sock poi....shooting stars. When you practice with other toys...even the same moves will come out different and it will force new muscles into play... and the new moves on the different toys will likely morph into something newer yet when you go back to your original poi.

Also... drastically change the music you are listening too... it will alter your patterns as you try to blend with the different beats.

It is similar when I play piano.... you need to let the old stuff "screw up".... but in reality it is a new melody coming into play... but you can't have it... until you let loose of the concepts (music/ poi moves) you already have.

Was-te

Renard

A lot of people have given a lot of decent advice on this thread. However, Faye, you hit the nail on the head with your initial post. To advance your spinning, you need to stretch. Specifically, you need to either a) stretch your body or b) stretch your mind. Faye, you've seen Alien Jon spin - the man does very, very little that involves body contortions, yet he's coming up with new moves all the time because his mind is very elastic. Have you seen Zan's videos from a year or so ago? Elastic body - lots of tied-in-knots contorted moves.

So if you want to get btb moves, sure, you can stretch up and get better at them. But if you decide that they just aren't worth the heartache (some people's bodies need a lot more work to get the range of motion that they need for good btb), there's an entire world of hybrid flower, mind-blender type moves that can keep you occupied for the next year. After that, there's fluency in all types of inswing- based inside moves. Then you combine them. Then you clean up your isolations and stalls (in all directions) a bit more, because perfection is elusive. Then you work on your footwork and learn to smooth out your transitions while moving and turning. Then you learn to move like other spinners who's style you like (this is way harder than it sounds, and is really fun if you nail it for an audience who knows who you're impersonating).

I recently had a rough period where I was trying to get the "cateye"/1 beat antispin. It was driving me nuts, because I just couldn't get the feel of it. I practiced for an hour on it, every day. Not spinning for fun or dancing, but just drilling the move. I was getting nowhere and was tearing my proverbial hair out. I got hooked on Vinyasa yoga, started going to classes every day, and became stronger and more flexible. I still practiced the cateye, but only for about half an hour every day. My shoulders became stronger, and my response time improved - boom! the move clicked right into place.

The point isn't to pick one or the other, the point is to understand that if the body is dragging its feet, work on developing the mind, and vice versa. If you pay attention to your own personal curve, you will be able to tell which one is ready to benefit the most from your focused efforts.


On a technical note, to get greater flexibility on your btb wall plane, make sure your posture is good with your head up and spine straight. Widen your stance, bend your knees and sink into it, all kungfu-like. Put your hands behind your hips, fingers pointing back and away from you, palms up. Bend your elbows and extend your finger tips another inch away from the body. Squeeze your shoulder-blades together. Make sure your posture is still good. This is the most ergonomic way to deal with the btb wall plane. Practice your btb butterflies in this posture in front of a mirror. Make sure you aren't going all atomic and whatnot. This will do a lot to create good habits and strengthen the muscles that guide btb moves. Do this a little every day, and in the meantime look up some stall-flower-hybrid thingies that make your head explode and practice them! If you have trouble finding them, PM me and I'll help you out.

-Baz